Over at Salon, Edwin Lyngar tells us that he has given up on libertarianism because of a recent vacation he took to the Honduras. He classified the trip as a nightmare: My libertarian vacation nightmare: How Ayn Rand, Ron Paul & their groupies were all debunked
I am really not sure how he reached the conclusion that the Honduras is a libertarian country, but he did:
Eliminate all taxes, privatize everything, load a country up with guns and oppose all public expenditures, you end up with Honduras.Privatize everything?
Empresa Nacional de Energía Eléctrica is Honduras's government owned and operated electrical power company. ENEE supplies 84.8% of Honduras' electricity.
Hondutel is Honduras' government owned telecommunications company. It has a monopoly on international calls.
Neither of these government owned companies would be something you would find in a libertarian country.
But Lyngar goes on:
The country has a handful of really rich people, a small group of middle-class, some security guards who seem to be getting by and a massive group of people who are starving to death and living in slums.This tipped me off right away. There is no way you are going to see such slums in a country, unless there are high minimum wage laws and regulations which make it difficult to start a business. So I did some digging.
Honduras has the most complex minimum wage laws I have ever seen. Take a look for yourself.
As far as starting a business, the World Bank lists it as extremely difficult to do so in Honduras, with a rank of 138 out of 189 countries. Which is to say nothing about its ranking for Enforcing Contracts (166).
I only took a few minutes to do research on the obvious, minimum wage laws and start up difficulties, but any country which is so oppressive in these two sectors is likely to be a regulation nightmare across the board. That's why you have extensive slums in the country---and it has nothing to do with the philosophy of Ron Paul or Ayn Rand.
Robert Wenzel is Editor & Publisher at EconomicPolicyJournal.com and at Target Liberty. He is also author of The Fed Flunks: My Speech at the New York Federal Reserve Bank. Follow him on twitter:@wenzeleconomics
It was a dirty strawman attack.
ReplyDeleteits salon Libertarianism, where you proclaim yourself to be a libertarian only to recoil in horror at something that Salon thinks is the anarchism in action and go running back your statism (which you had never really left)
ReplyDeleteHe wrote an article in 2013 "Why I fled libertarianism and become a liberal," so he's full of shit when he tries to say a recent trip to Honduras changed his mind.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.salon.com/2013/12/28/why_i_fled_libertarianism_and_became_a_liberal/
He also ripped on his Fox News watching "Archie Bunker" dad last year in another Salon article. Sounds like a self-centered opportunist to me. http://www.salon.com/2014/02/27/i_lost_my_dad_to_fox_news_how_a_generation_was_captured_by_thrashing_hysteria/
Honduras ranks at 116 on the Heritage Economic Freedom index, eight slots behind Sandinista controlled Nicaragua.
ReplyDeleteSome "libertarianism" they got there.
Any good indexes that aren't from Heritage?
DeleteFallacious agitprop.
ReplyDeleteSalon is where you go if you want to read about straw man arguments against libertarianism. They are generally terrible.
ReplyDelete15% sales tax doesn't sound like anything Ron Paul would be for.
ReplyDeleteRand Maybe.
However it's a Libertarian society in practice because the government may have rules in place but no way to practically enforce them. But then a high crime rate would be what Libertarians want: not security but freedom. It should be empowering that there's nothing to stop a criminal buy your own private initiative and ability. Such a place would keep you sharp unlike a safe society.
ReplyDeleteAnother brilliant gem from the snarky troll.
Delete"But then a high crime rate would be what Libertarians want: not security but freedom. "
DeleteYou really are an idiot and should just stop talking.
Gil's just a troll. It posts everywhere just to stir shit up. Pay no attention to it.
DeleteSo say three "Libertarians" who don't have to live in the societies they imagine would be wonderful. Go to any place without a proper functioning government and you don't find Libertopia for some reason. Libertarians like to say "those who prefer safety over liberty deserve neither" yet are always sitting safely in the comfort bubble that is the West.
DeleteAs said there are places where if you're the victim there's no point going to the police. In such a society that means private solutions should be cropping up which should lead better results than the police and in turn see the crime rate plummet to something much lower than countries with an active police force. Yet strangely enough it's the exact opposite - crime is rife and the safest place to be is a crime boss. You'll say a Libertarian society won't be like that smugly knowing you won't have to prove it.
"In such a society that means private solutions should be cropping up which should lead better results than the police and in turn see the crime rate plummet to something much lower than countries with an active police force."
DeleteGil,
First-you are speaking in generalizations, "there are places", "the West", etc. et al
You can't make an argument like you are trying to make without some degree of specificity.
So ignoring any comparisons you are trying to make because of their general nature for a moment(I guess you can climb on the "Somalia" bandwagon if you want, as it's the primary left Statist talking point in these matters, and then we can talk about why they aren't relevant if you'd like). For now let's instead focus on the nature of a "plummeting" crime rate:
The US incarcerates far more people than any other country in the world, including China.
Yet, several measure/metrics of crime put the US somewhere around the middle in terms of crimes per capita:
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Total-crimes-per-1000
Notice several of the "emerging economies" not traditionally considered the "West" as you put are substantially lower in the crimes per capita.
Now, you can argue this two ways. You can say some of those places are safer than the US, or you can say the police aren't prosecuting crimes-you interpret the data to fit your worldview Gil.
What you can't deny, is the top 10 in terms of crimes per capita are mostly "advanced" Western mixed economies, primarily fascist/socialist in their makeup-suggesting that Gil's "proper functioning gov't" theory is laughable on its face. (whatever the hell "proper" means to Gil)
So in summary, Gil's complaint that we "smugly knowing you won't have to prove it" is far more relevant to him than us.
Gil has to hide behind generalizations such as the "proper functioning gov't" and every time someone points out gov't dysfunction he'll say "It's not proper functioning!" knowing he'll never have to prove what IS a proper functioning gov't in his Statist utopia.
"proper functioning gov't"
DeleteYeah. I'd sure like to see one for once. When in the hell has that EVER happened? He's just trolling (either that or he's far dumber than I thought) but I've heard morons use that idiotic term. As if there ever was such a thing. LOL!!! Zombies like this crack me up. They're as THICK as a brick.
To the Idiot Left: There is no such thing as a "proper functioning gov't" you dumb asses! You can't make dog shit taste into a healthy meal you idiots.
Aw what you two want to a perfect society and until then you can dismiss real world failures as "not true Libertarian experiments" then? When a currency fails (e.g. Zimbabwe) then there should private alternatives cropping up that in Libertarian theory should be superior to statists currencies because the private alternatives emerged rather than be imposed. Likewise if you have a government where the law & order is defunct then private alternatives should emerge and in Libertarian theory should be superior than the law & order solutions in the U.S.
DeleteYet somehow private currencies never seems to go much farther than bartering and private law & order don't do much to stop crime at all.
So is there no crime in government run societies? Is it safe to walk anywhere in Chicago? Is Cuba a wonderful government run paradise? If all the problems that happen in Honduras are the result of anarchy as you claim, shouldn't all the problems that occur in government run societies be the result of government using your logic?
DeleteYou're going to wait for a perfect society so you can say "well all societies have crime" then? Last time I looked people in the West had recourse in being a victim of crime and those who commit crime tend to face the courts for what they did. A non-function country where there's effectively no police or courts would be a decent test case for a Libertarian society that also has no police or courts. In both places it's supposed that private solutions will crop up that would outshine the government's police and court system.
Delete"Aw what you two want to a perfect society and until then you can dismiss real world failures as "not true Libertarian experiments" then?"
DeleteNo, that's what you don't get Gil. Libertarians, or "libertarians" rather(look up the difference and educate yourself), understand human nature.
Statists like yourself think that actenuating man's power via monopoly control(government), somehow creates a governing class that will somehow make for better society(a move toward "perfection" in your parlance).
It's laughable, the proof otherwise is around us everyday, everywhere.
All you have logically is bitching and moaning that governmenting isn't "functioning properly"....everywhere! LMAO!
What a joke!
"A non-function country where there's effectively no police or courts would be a decent test case for a Libertarian society that also has no police or courts."
It is in the sentence you show yourself completely ignoration of libertrian(no capital L) positions. Go road Walter Block or a host of other libertarian scholars on private courts/justice systems(and we have private arbitration today, which is only tamped by gov't monopolized justice) and then come back and explain to us how you came up with the above outright false statement.
I don't mind debate points with you Gil, but the least you can do is at least stick to facts instead of outright fabrications.
edit: "It is in this sentence you show yourself ignorant of"
Delete& "Go read Walter Block"
Spellcheck screws things up again...
Libertarians like to say private solutions would outshine public solutions given half the chance and when a real world opportunity arises somehow it doesn't work out that way. Libertarians then say that since the real world society isn't perfectly voluntary the experiment doesn't invalidate Libertarianism
DeleteLibertarians understand human nature? Nope not at al. They're just pen-pushers safe from the woes of the world just like Socialists.
"when a real world opportunity arises somehow it doesn't work out that way."
DeleteObviously Gil, you can't see when there are examples of voluntary interaction around us that produce superior results to involuntary. There are examples every day. Look at the prices of TV's, cell phone, etc. Do you think any involuntary system could product the quality and & quantity available that voluntary interaction has provided?(aka a semblance of a free market)
Of course not, it's not even debatable.
"Libertarians understand human nature? Nope not at al."
This isn't even an argument, it's a claim with nothing to back it up, so I can't address it other than to say if statists are the opposite of libertarians than we've yet to have a statist society that has withstood to the test of time long term. They all end in relatively the same way as well, bankruptcy & war, so that itself is telling.
"They're just pen-pushers safe from the woes of the world just like Socialists."
If only that were true Gil. We are all victims of statist ideals regardless if we are pen pushers, blue/white collar workers, or even those wielding gov't force themselves(eventually anyway).
Civilization is what suffers when you don't have voluntary interaction, hurting us all.
We're arguing over the core functions over government not consumer fluff. Libertarians have long argued all services can be rendered by private agencies better than governments. This means when there's hyperinflation and the national currency is defunct there's a prime opportunity for private currencies to emerge and if Libertarianism is true it should supersede anything currency the government could provide. Likewise if a government has collapsed in a way there's no effective law & order then private solutions to crime should emerge and be superior to anything government could provide. So when real life experiments does the private market outshine the government? Nope. People just barter and try to set up a new government currency. Likewise no effective law & order means crime skyrockets and people just roll with the punches until government law & order is restored.
Delete"We're arguing over the core functions over government not consumer fluff. "
DeleteNo Gil, you are arguing over "core functions over government". What are "core functions"? More preposterous vagueries?
Is referring to "consumer fluff" your attempt to toss the notion of voluntary society under the bus of consumerism?
"This means when there's hyperinflation and the national currency is defunct there's a prime opportunity for private currencies to emerge and if Libertarianism is true it should supersede anything currency the government could provide."
No Gil, unfortunately it doesn't. People en masse have to start to accept the non-aggression principle for that to happen-or in other words, they must want to live in a voluntary society.(and understand what that means)
That what the rest of your commentary does not take into account. The intellectual war being waged is over the basic principles under which we should interact with each other, not how Libertarianism(really libertarianism) can supplant aggression/monopolized violence without enough people accepting the concept of the non-aggression principle(which doesn't seem possible at this point in time).
That you don't accept that such a society can exist, or that maybe you have a fundamental problem with voluntary society, is your opinion and nothing more. If we took the naysayers of yesteryear in any given field and solely listened to them there would be no progression in man's abilities, quality of life, etc.
Salon is always so bad that it is actually entertaining to read in the same way as tabloids like the National Enquirer. I have to admit, though, that Big Foot and visits from space aliens are a bit more plausible in my mind than the State improving my life.
ReplyDeleteFar more evidence of the former than the latter, too.
DeleteSalon is just a Leftist rag. Yellow journalists galore.
DeleteI think I will write an article just so I can include a line "I used to be an ardent fascist, until I visited the United States."
ReplyDeletePossible bright spot for Honduras; the creation of a ZEDE. http://panampost.com/panam-staff/2015/01/20/honduras-to-unveil-first-zede-in-march/
ReplyDeleteMy wife from and her brother from Honduras (my future home, God willing), and my grown stepchildren with her, wildly cheer this development, as do I.
DeleteZEDE looks like an end run around the politicians and entrenched cronies, with a payoff for their pockets that will exceed all they could ever sqeeze from the body politic as it is.
After their scare in 2009 that the left-fascists came so close to turning it into another Cuba or Chavez fiefdom, the president began gathering ideas from all sectors for bootstrapping out of poverty. They studies success stories like Souh Korea, Dubai, Hong Kong to find what works, and got input from Austrian leaning consultants, I understand. (There were problems with the first plan. Canadian government import is a bitter sounding thing).
Most complaints from Hondurans on this are "What about me?" And "Hurry up already!" Note the mayor said Bring it on!
Lobo had requested input for ideas in 2010, including expatriates. A fellow US American group list member went for the immigrant community, and asked us for imput. I suggested they study other success stories like Chile (for a Latin American example), South Korea, and so on, and emulate the relevant actions. (I also mentioned education and technology, that hasn't flown as well in government sectors. (The teachers' union is the worst union on earth. Marxists infiltrate them everywhere first it seems)
The writing style and attention to detail are exactly like the "I used to be a Libertarian" articles that Salon ran several months ago. In other words, it's a deliberate hit-piece designed to make Libertarian ideas look stupid so Salon readers won't dig any deeper.
ReplyDelete. . . even more so.
Delete"...so Salon readers won't dig any deeper."
DeleteYes keep Salon readers on the government reservation.
"...libertarian ideas are attractive to mostly young, white men with high ideals and no life experience that live off of the previous generation’s investments and sacrifice. I know this because as a young, white idiot, I subscribed to this system of discredited ideas: Selfishness is good, government is bad."
ReplyDelete"Part of the reason this discredited, libertarian bullshit still carries any weight for Americans is because so few of us travel."
Tired of these racist stereotypes. As a non-white U.S. expatriate it is almost like I do not exist. Maybe I am the Yeti the tabloid journalists are referring to. Please do not give these collective guilt types a free pass on their racist bile. Enough is enough.
Thanks.
" I know this because as a young, white idiot, I subscribed to this system of discredited ideas: Selfishness is good, government is bad."
DeleteHe clearly is still an idiot. He implicitly acknowledges that one has to be "selfless" for gov't to exist and never thinks about the ramifications of putting gov't above your personal welfare.
As RW has highlighted before, it's an example of "Pathological Altruism" that is not only self destructive but destructive to others via the funding of an institution that routinely carries out evil on them.
As if committing theft by government is somehow anything other than selfishness, greedy, and criminal. LOL! Where do they dig up these inferior minds anyway?
DeleteYour response makes the total effect of (salon article- your response) pro libertarian. Critical to address your opponents arguments directly and soon. If you are right ,truth will win. Thanks
ReplyDeleteENEE controls around half of the energy supply and the telecommunications market was opened to the private sector 10 years ago, so this article, in response to a supposed baseless and unfactual arcticle, is in itself the same. I've dabbled in libertarian ideas in the past and supported Dr. Paul in both his presidential campaigns, but was turned off by the current state of conservatism. I have an honest question for the more intelligible supporters of these ideas, with no ill intent. In a Free Market system, where emphasis is put on competition driving quality up and cost down, what does this do to the wages of private sector employees? If cost goes does, wages go down, as labor is the highest cost of most everything.
ReplyDelete"If cost goes does, wages go down, as labor is the highest cost of most everything."
DeleteThere are clear examples under which this is not the case.(both wages going down and your statement that "labor is the highest cost")
For example. look at the currently war for skilled(?) employees between Apple, Tesla, & now A123 battery.
As RW noted in a previous write up and as being reported, skilled employees are actually making more, not less.(see Google as well)
There are a series of reasons for this, but using my own business as an example, I employ far less people than in 2003, but those I do employ make significantly more money now. My sales per employee has increased 60% in the last 10 years.
Now that doesn't address those that haven't the skill to capitalize on increased productivity, but that's a whole separate discussion.
In a profitable & productive market with competition, there is competition for employees as well.