Tuesday, September 1, 2015

SHOTS FIRED Walter Block vs. Steve Horwitz: Will Horwitz Pull His Commitment to Speak at Loyola?

Walter Block has supplied me with this email exchange which he had with Steve Horwitz and others:


From: Leo Krasnozhon
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 1:22 PM
To: Steve Horwitz
Cc: walterblock@business.loyno.edu
Subject: Loyola visit

Dear Dr. Horwitz,

I hope that you are doing well.
Chris Surprenant invited you to present at UNO and Loyola in November. I believe that you gave a guest lecture at Loyola before. This time Dr. Block would like to have a debate with you.  He offers to discuss the following topics: Libertarianism (thick versus thin) and Austrian economics. I copy Walter on this email. Please, let me know if you are interested in a debate and what topics you’d like to discuss.


Sincerely,

Leo A. Krasnozhon
Assistant Professor of Economics
Chase Minority Entrepreneurship Distinguished Professorship
Loyola University New Orleans
---
From: Steve Horwitz
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 2:30 PM
To: Leo Krasnozhon
Cc: Walter Block
Subject: RE: Loyola visit

Hi Leo.

Thanks for confirming the invitation, I look forward to being there. To be honest, a debate would not be my first choice for format because I think it tends to put the students in the mode of picking a winner/rooting for one or the other rather than learning from what a guest lecturer can provide that their usual faculty cannot.

If you guys really think a debate would be valuable, I would prefer to do “Austrian Economics” over the thick/thin libertarianism topic.

If you decide to go with a lecture, here is my current list of topics. http://myslu.stlawu.edu/~shorwitz/lectures.htm

I did the “Capitalism and the Family” one when I was there like 6 years ago, but I’m happy to do it again with my new book on that topic coming out very shortly. I have also given the Walmart and Katrina talk there as well to one of Dan D’s classes that same visit.

But whatever you guys would like.

I don’t know if we talked about compensation/stipend at some point, but we should sometime soon.

Let me know what works for you guys!

SH
----

From: Walter Block [mailto:walterblock@business.loyno.edu]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 3:43 PM
To: Steve Horwitz; Leo Krasnozhon
Subject: RE: Loyola visit


Dear Steve:

I’m delighted you’ve agreed to debate me on Austrian economics. Maybe, it won’t be much of a debate, if we agree with each other on everything, but, still, it will be valuable to students to see two different people articulate much the same thing. But, I think there are areas of disagreement. Praxeology? Fractional reserve banking? Can you think of any other areas of disagreement? Indifference? The value of public choice? Cardinal utility? On which issues to you diverge from the views of Murray Rothbard? I expect we’ll be able to nail down at least some few things of interest.

Best regards,

Walter

Walter E. Block, Ph.D.
Harold E. Wirth Eminent Scholar Endowed Chair and Professor of Economics
Joseph A. Butt, S.J. College of Business                
Loyola University New Orleans
----

From: Steve Horwitz
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 4:12 PM
To: Walter Block; Leo Krasnozhon
Subject: RE: Loyola visit

Walter,

As Leo extended the invitation to me, I would like to know what his views are. I have not agreed to anything until I hear from him.

To be honest, I find the whole idea of inviting me to give a talk and then insisting upon a debate to be an unprofessional bit of bait and switch.  If this was what you all wanted, I should have been informed of that when the original invitation was extended.

SH

----

Dear Steve:

Dan issued the invitation. Dan is no longer here. He went off to some lesser university, the name of which escapes me.  If you don’t want to debate me, that’s ok. I withdraw my challenge. We’ll stick with Dan’s invitation. You can give your lecture safe from any critique I might offer.

Best regards,

Walter

Walter E. Block, Ph.D.
Harold E. Wirth Eminent Scholar Endowed Chair and Professor of Economics
Joseph A. Butt, S.J. College of Business                
Loyola University New Orleans
---

From: Leo Krasnozhon
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 5:12 PM
To: Walter Block; Steve Horwitz
Subject: RE: Loyola visit

Dear Steve and Walter,

Chris and I (and Dan) invited you to give a guest lecture at UNO and Loyola. Walter suggested debating you if you don’t mind it. I am fine with any option. It’s completely up to you and Walter. We can even have both events with a guest lecture at lunch time and debate in the evening. The original plan was only a guest lecture.

Leo
---

From: Steve Horwitz
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 6:00 PM
To: Walter Block; Leo Krasnozhon
Cc: Chris W. Surprenant (chriswsurprenant@gmail.com)
Subject: RE: Loyola visit

Gents,

I have talked to Chris.  The talk there is at 5pm, so I will only do one public event at Loyola.

Here are your options, take your pick.

1. I am happy to do a lecture for the Economics Club at whatever small stipend the Club was prepared to pay me and the splitting of expenses with UNO. I will let you all decide which lecture I give. Of course I will happily take questions from all comers and am also happy to spend additional time with your students as you wish, either before and/or after the talk. I will also do a guest appearance in one of Leo’s classes if he wishes.

OR

2. Walter has made it clear in a previous email that debating me is not, in fact, about what is best for students, but rather about his own ego and our history. Additionally, I did not agree to a debate when I agreed to this visit to campus.  Nonetheless, I will happily debate Walter on Austrian Economics under the following conditions:

a.       I will receive my normal campus visit speaker’s stipend of $2000

b.      NO STUDENT/ECON CLUB FUNDS will be used to pay that stipend, though the Econ Club can nominally sponsor the event and help cover travel costs with UNO

c.       Walter can either raise the money separately or write me a personal check

d.      I will debate Walter in a mutually agreed-upon format for 90 minutes, but I will not interact with students outside of the 90 minutes of the debate.


If Walter wants to make this about him or about the two of us, he can pay for the privilege, and he can make it clear to the students in the process that this is not about what is best for them.

Let me know which of the two options you prefer.

SH
---

From: Walter Block [mailto:walterblock@business.loyno.edu]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 9:35 PM
To: Steve Horwitz; Leo Krasnozhon
Cc: chriswsurprenant@gmail.com
Subject: RE: Loyola visit



Dear Steve:

I thought we were keeping this conversation to the three of us. I note you’ve added Chris. What gives? Since you broke this agreement, I’ll feel free to do so also?

I choose option1.

Best regards,

Walter

Walter E. Block, Ph.D.
Harold E. Wirth Eminent Scholar Endowed Chair and Professor of Economics
Joseph A. Butt, S.J. College of Business                
Loyola University New Orleans
---

From: Steve Horwitz]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 8:53 PM
To: Walter Block; Leo Krasnozhon
Subject: RE: Loyola visit

And I happily accept the first option.

When you guys decide which talk you want, let me know.

Here’s the link again to my list of public talks:  http://myslu.stlawu.edu/~shorwitz/lectures.htm

SH
---

From: Walter Block [mailto:walterblock@business.loyno.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2015 10:33 AM
To: Steve Horwitz; Leo Krasnozhon
Cc: Robert Wenzel
Subject: RE: Loyola visit



Dear Steve:

I asked you if I should keep this conversation to the three of us, me, you and Leo. You wanted me to do so. I agreed. Then, you brought Chris into it. So, I now feel free to share this with others, too.

Best regards,

Walter

Walter E. Block, Ph.D.
Harold E. Wirth Eminent Scholar Endowed Chair and Professor of Economics
Joseph A. Butt, S.J. College of Business                
Loyola University New Orleans
----


Steve Horwitz
to Walter, Leo, me

I interpreted “conversation” to mean “emails,” which any rational person would. You are free to discuss our conversation with anyone you wish.  That’s your right.  My objection was to the sharing of the actual emails. I shared none of your emails to me.

If Wenzel shares any of this conversation on his blog, I will withdraw from speaking at Loyola.  Period.

SH
 ---

Dear Bob:

Please blog the entire correspondence. Grr.

Best regards,

Walter

Walter E. Block, Ph.D.
Harold E. Wirth Eminent Scholar Endowed Chair and Professor of Economics
Joseph A. Butt, S.J. College of Business                
Loyola University New Orleans

UPDATE FROM DR. BLOCK

From: Walter Block
8:20 AM
to Steve, Leo, me


I am delighted you will not be speaking at Loyola

Walter E. Block, Ph.D.
Harold E. Wirth Eminent Scholar Endowed Chair and Professor of Economics
Joseph A. Butt, S.J. College of Business        

Loyola University New Orleans

UPDATE 2 FROM DR. BLOCK

Walter Block
8:26 AM

to Steve, Leo, me

Dear Steve:

You are a disgrace to intellectual pursuits. Read up on John Stuart Mill’s On Liberty, and the importance he places on all views being publicly articulated.

There was never any bait and switch. There were only invitations. No one ever said that if you didn’t debate me, that you would be disinvited. That would be a bait and switch.

Best regards,

Walter

Walter E. Block, Ph.D.
Harold E. Wirth Eminent Scholar Endowed Chair and Professor of Economics
Joseph A. Butt, S.J. College of Business                
Loyola University New Orleans

UPDATE 3

See: Block To Horwitz: I Regard You as an Intellectual Coward

18 comments:

  1. Horwitz is afraid of losing the debate.

    ReplyDelete
  2. "If Wenzel shares any of this conversation on his blog, I will withdraw from speaking at Loyola. Period."

    That is too funny! Your reputation precedes you.

    ReplyDelete
  3. I love Walter Block. I disagree with Horwitz more often than Block (on libertarianism, not necessarily economics). With that said, Block comes across badly here and Horwitz really doesn't.
    Harry

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Block comes off badly? The dialogue was going along fine until completely out of nowhere Horowitz goes tender-minded paranoid and starts imagining some kind of weird conspiracy to bait-and-switch him, none of which can be extracted from what Block said. I have nothing against Horowitz but he come across as playing out some kind of pre-established victimhood role, either intentionally or unconsciously.

      Delete
    2. "With that said, Block comes across badly here and Horwitz really doesn't."

      Here's where it went south:

      "Walter can either raise the money separately or write me a personal check."

      To re-cap, Horowitz could have simply said, "No, I do not wish to debate Dr. Block", but no, he instead says he'll do it if Block personally pays and then he won't answer student body questions afterwards.

      lol

      IMO it's not Block coming off badly....but the other way around.

      Delete
    3. Horowitz didn't say he won't debate Block. It just seems like he wants it to be clear in everyone's mind that the debate is about Block vs. Horowitz, moreso than about educating the students.

      The suggestion that Block pay Horowitz to debate was intended to disassociate the debate from the school. This is consistent with Horowitz' view that Block has a vendetta.

      At least that's Horowitz' position. Apparently, they have some sort of history that would need to be factored in to our assessment of these emails.

      Horowitz CC'd Chris when he began talking about him, but only after Leo name-dropped him, first.

      Probably not a good idea to post someone's speaking fees, also.

      Walter Block is awesome, but I also think he looks bad on this one.

      Delete
    4. Ok Anon @ 9:40(Harry?)

      Let's go a little deeper:

      You say, "Horowitz didn't say he won't debate Block. It just seems like he wants it to be clear in everyone's mind that the debate is about Block vs. Horowitz, moreso than about educating the students."

      Here's what SH said initially in relation to debate:

      "If you guys really think a debate would be valuable, I would prefer to do “Austrian Economics” over the thick/thin libertarianism topic."

      Seems to back up what you're saying.

      Block accepts, asks which topics should be discussed for student learning/interest, then SH follows with this:

      "To be honest, I find the whole idea of inviting me to give a talk and then insisting upon a debate to be an unprofessional bit of bait and switch. If this was what you all wanted, I should have been informed of that when the original invitation was extended."

      So that is basically a 100% turn around IMO. It's clear he's not happy with the concept of a debate even though in his previous statement he seemed game.

      I agree that the two have some sort of history that we all are not completely privy to, but really it doesn't change SH's sudden turn around an unprofessional behavior and insulting way of making a debate a virtual impossibility.

      He could have taken the high road and simply said "no thank you". Calling people "unprofessional" or accusing them of "bait and switch", then finally issuing ridiculous demands for personal payment for a debate is absurd and projects the image of unprofessional behavior he's accusing others of.


      Delete
    5. "I love Walter Block. I disagree with Horwitz more often than Block (on libertarianism, not necessarily economics). With that said, Block comes across badly here and Horwitz really doesn't.
      Harry"

      I've seen this false flag tactic before.

      Delete
    6. "So that is basically a 100% turn around IMO. It's clear he's not happy with the concept of a debate even though in his previous statement he seemed game."

      Right before your first quote of Horowitz, he says (in the first response email to Leo):

      "Thanks for confirming the invitation, I look forward to being there. To be honest, a debate would not be my first choice for format because I think it tends to put the students in the mode of picking a winner/rooting for one or the other rather than learning from what a guest lecturer can provide that their usual faculty cannot.

      "If you guys really think a debate would be valuable, I would prefer to do “Austrian Economics” over the thick/thin libertarianism topic."

      So, he seemed to be up for it, but was never gung ho about it.

      Delete
    7. "I've seen this false flag tactic before."

      The term you're looking for is "Concern Troll".

      And, yes, in the proper context, that could be a fine example of it. :D

      Delete
    8. Just to be clear, Anon@940 is not me.

      -Harry

      Delete
  4. I am also confused as to how Horwitz is a disgrace to intellectual pursuits for not airing his public views, when Block stopped him from doing so by asking you (Wenzel) to blog this.
    - Harry

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Block didn't stop Horwitz from doing anything, Horwitz stopped himself. If Horwitz said he would only speak if Block fasted for a week, and Block responded by eating breakfast, would you accuse him of stopping Horwitz from speaking? If some arbitrary limitation stops someone from doing something, the person guilty of preventing it is the person who imposed the limitation, in this case Horwitz.

      Delete
  5. Horowitz is kind of a little bitch.

    I'm sorry, no other way to put it.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Don't you love it when nobodies make outrageous demands, strut, and demand attention as if what they way and who they are are of consequence.

    "Douche" thy name is Steve Horowitz.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Replies
    1. Agreed. I think both professors behaved with immaturity, deliberately amplifying minor perturbations into a kerfuffle rather than politely ignoring personal foibles and staying focused on bigger philosophical issues. Gotta pick battles in life.

      Delete
  8. BS, it's Horowitz who is afraid, he is all talk and no action, not surprised. He attack and virtue signals like a true leftist.

    ReplyDelete