Tuesday, January 8, 2019

The Delusion of the Immigrant Haters

Immigrant haters think
 when they see this picture:
Welfare collectors trying to earn a little extra cash
At the post, The Neoright, Immigrants and Pre-Crime, a commenter writes:
Unless there are pressures to prevent it people recreate what they flee where they flee too. Look at the places people flee to from California. What's becoming of them? Are they moving towards or away from liberty?

When a culture adapts to those who arrive instead of those who arrive adapting to the culture there should be concern. How does a culture of liberty survive when it is adapting to people fleeing socialism?
This has no basis in reality.

The serious lefties in California are for the most part American-born and educated white or black. The newly-elected governor of California, Gavin Newsom. is a total lefty. He is in favor of universal healthcare, gun control and, get this, six months paid parental leave.

KTLA reports:
[Newsom] is expected to propose a dramatic expansion of paid parental leave — from six weeks to six months — according to an internal document provided by a source close to the Newsom transition team, first reported on Sunday by the New York Times.
The document doesn’t offer a full explanation for how the program will be funded, saying instead that the budget will set “a goal of ensuring that all newborns and newly adopted babies can be cared for by a parent or a close family member for the first six months.” Employers across the state are currently assessed a payroll tax that helps offer a subsidy to parents who temporarily leave their job to care for a newborn.
Newsom is a  is a fourth-generation San Franciscan, attended Redwood High School in the city of Larkspur, California and graduated from Santa Clara University. One of Newsom's maternal great-grandfathers, Thomas Addis, was a pioneer scientist in the field of nephrology and a professor of medicine at Stanford University.

The lefty House Speaker, the California rep, Nancy Pelosi was born in Baltimore. California lefty Senator Kamala Harris was born in Oakland. Her father is Professor of Economics, Emeritus at Stanford University.

Talk to any white person in Los Angeles or San Francisco and odds are you are going to be talking to an American born lefty.

The Hispanic immigrants that I have spoken to keep their heads down and don't talk politics. They want to talk about their families---and the two or three jobs they have, which they are proud of.

And it should be remembered that these people are very culturally conservative and pro-traditional family. As the paleo-conservative Paul Gottfried noted, they voted in a Californa referendum in accordance with their social views to ban gay marriage. This is not exactly the way the lefty vote goes.

To be sure, they vote with the current trends around them when there is no clear cultural conflict. For the most part, like almost all, they are trend followers but given their work ethic and family values, it is probably much easier to flip them toward liberty then spoiled white kids who are educated in American anti-liberty colleges and universities and never worked a day while they went to school.



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    1. Re: Sherlock,

      ── The illegal immigrants I've encountered have harmed others, drove highly drunk, and didn't seem culturally conservative at all. ──

      You must be very unlucky.

      ── Do immigrants in Red states vote Republican? ──

      How quickly you changed the focus of your attention from illegal immigrants to just *immigrants*. Trumpistas are given to playing these little games of equivocation.

      ── If it takes at least a generation to flip immigrant families to pro liberty [...] ──

      The question is how do you define "pro liberty" and why the focus on "families" rather than individuals? Trumpistas so far have shown themselves quite HOSTILE to liberty, economic and personal, so I have to wonder about the sincerity behind your words. Giving consideration to your wager that immigrants require a generation to become pro-liberty, I'll take my chances with them rather than with paranoid crazies who bring torches to rallies and mow down people with their cars. You know, the good people the president alluded to a year ago.

      ── The amount of damage to my family and neighbors during the interim ──

      You and your neighbors must be the unluckiest sons-of-b's that have ever lived in this world.

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    4. Re: Sherlock,

      ── My family and neighbors will be harmed with an increase in progressive voting. Has that been addressed? ──

      Who told you immigrants VOTE? You want to be taken seriously and yet keep spewing out the same paranoid trope repeated by others that immigrants are out there to get you, by going to the ballot box, even when there's NO evidence immigrants vote.

      ── You assumed, without knowledge, that I am pro Trump ──

      No, I said "Trumpistas have shown themselves hostile to liberty", so I asked you: how do you define being pro liberty? It is clear the GREATEST THREAT to liberty today does not come from immigrants, it comes from Trumpistas, whose champion is hobbling trade and commerce for the benefit of a few cronies, increased spending and threatened to use powers that were not meant to be used lightly. Don't come here to lecture the rest of us on what is to be pro liberty while accusing people that YOU DON'T KNOW of being a threat to liberty.

  2. All the white people complaing about immigrants are losers. LOSERS!

    They experience anxiety over the future of their culture because they dont reproduce.

    They experience anxiety over theirs jobs because an illiterate foreigners who walked here from Honduras has a better attitude and is a better employee than they are.

    They point to the accomplishments of their ancestors because they have none of their own.

    They punch down at the immigrants because they know they'll only have the chance for so much longer.

    LOSERS! This is the dead hatred of the living.

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    3. Ask the Angel Moms what they think. Are they losers? Ask Matthew Denice's parents what they think. Are they loser's? By the way, their son got dragged a quarter-mile to his death by one of your drunken hombres.

    4. Where in my post did I mention hate?

      Their anxieties are real, they are just mistaken to blame them on the immigrants. The immigrants didnt dismantle the American family. The immigrants didnt stop you from doing your homework and learning a first world marketable skill. The immigrants didnt launch dozens of insane and evil wars. The immigrants are not stopping us from ending the war on drugs. The immigrants didnt inflate the value of your savings away.

      America has real problems. Immigration is not causing them. You are being tricked into advocating for a police state.

    5. Ok I did mention hate at the end
      Fair point.

      Maybe it is right to call it hate. But it is misdirected hate born of confusion and frustration. The guards and wardens are tricking us into turning on our fellow prisoners.

      It is hate. The State deliberately cultivates hate for ones neighbors among its subjects. They want you to be afraid of the immigrants and they want the immigrants to be afraid of you.

      It's a trick. Grow up and stop falling for it.

    6. Re: Chubba Dog,

      ── Ask the Angel Moms what they think. ──

      Perhaps the question to them should be if they think that guns kill people. There's no difference in the argument against immigration and against guns.

      ── Are they losers? ──

      No. The people who use them as political pawns are losers. And those who would paint all immigrants with the same lazy brush are also, you know...

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    8. Oh yeah, let's ask the Angel Moms if they think that guns kill people. What a foolish and irrelevant thing to say. Their children are dead, and they were killed by criminals that shouldn't be here. Being a hardcore leftist with no empathy, you couldn't care less.

      That's as ridiculous as when you respond to everyone by saying "you must be unlucky". That's how you answer when you don't have any facts backing you up.

    9. Donxon, Lets say one has first world skills. How does one afford a child or two children let alone a fairly large family after paying taxes that go to support the children of the poor, the immigrants, the wars (which make for more other people to pay for), and so on? How does one afford children with all the laws and regulations on child care, protection, medical, etc that drive up the costs of children? Do the poor get ticketed for not having a car seat or fined for whatever? Maybe but even if they did there are special taxpayer funded programs so they can comply. Then the additional schools, roads, social services, and much more with all the government employees and their pensions.

      More resources required to have children plus less resources available becomes what? Less children.

      Sure the immigrants didn't cause this, the statists did. The left statists for votes the right statists for cheap to them employees. So what's the effective way to start mitigating the condition?

      Get rid of the welfare state and the socialized programs? Slow/stop the flow of people entering? Something has to give. Resources are finite and human wants and needs are infinite. An ever expanding welfare state and an endless flow of all comers is not sustainable, but that's what we have.

    10. Touche, Donxon. Excellent indeed.

    11. Re: Chubba Dog,

      ── Oh yeah, let's ask the Angel Moms if they think that guns kill people. What a foolish and irrelevant thing to say. ──

      It is as irrelevant as arguing that immigrants (the whole population) kill people. In other words: YOU sound equally foolish as those who argue against gun ownership, as both share the same facile, dumb arguments.

      By the way, how long are Trumpistas going to keep the pretense that mothers of people murdered by criminals who happen to be undocumented immigrants are in a special category compared to mothers of people victimized in some other way? At best, you can argue that all of them were failed by a State that ostensibly is there to "serve and protect".

      ── That's as ridiculous as when you respond to everyone by saying "you must be unlucky". ──

      It's the perfect response to those who claim have been blessed by a special curse: the curse of meeting everyone who is bad. "Every immigrant I meet is an ass-hat!" Yeah, right.

    12. Re: Sherlock,

      ── I hate the state. I like immigrants. ──

      "And, why, my best friend is a minority! That counts!" Please, go on.

      ── I question the wisdom of unrestricted mass migration given current US policy. ──

      US immigration policy is VERY RESTRICTIVE. The idea that there is a policy that encourages mass immigration is based on a lie. The reason so many persons are currently living under the radar in the US is because current policy is mostly prohibitionist.

      ── I have honest questions, and desire to have an open discussion. ──

      Open discussions require that people are honest. Saying "All 'illegal' immigrants I met were criminals!" is not conducive to honest discourse. And yes, I know you already said you were a police officer - that should give YOU pause before making assertions like the above since your experience with people would have been VERY limited.

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  3. This is a win-win for the politicians and a lose-lose for everyone else. Whether you are pro or con the current immigration situation, the politicians have framed this in a way that eliminates a non-coercive resolution, and is thus a win for them. There is no way to compare the costs and benefits of immigration for a whole population, there is only the reality of immigration. People move to where they perceive opportunity for a better life. Conflicts are resolved when both immigrant and native are allowed to make voluntary decisions on an individual basis. Millions of people making millions of decisions at millions of locations at millions of times in a constant flow of voluntary interactions.

    This can't happen with governments artificial borders and government citizenship and government property and government give-aways. This is politics and politics does not resolve disputes it creates them and that is what needs to be discussed.

    1. Finally! An answer that makes sense, is logical, and doesn't involve calling the other guy a "racist", "stupid", or a "loser". Thank you!

    2. Nailed it.
      Voluntaryism, free choice, and fidelity to property rights are what resolve competition for resources, not central-planning by politically-motivated, avaricious, psychopathic politicians. I should think that at minimum, the Federal government should not be in the business of immigration regulation (i.e. travel regulation), not least of all because such power is not found in the Constitution and otherwise was never ceded to it by the States; If any entity should have the power to regulate immigration, it should be each individual State.

  4. The legal and illegal immigration needs to be stopped immediately for a generation. The corporations are abusing the H1B program and the turd worlders are really not that smart to begin with. There are exceptions of course, but they are few. Especially libertarian oriented non whites.

    Us whites can't afford to breed stupidly and forced to pay for the dumb to breed. Maybe an illegal can replace Donxon for a couple bucks a day.

  5. Wow. Just wow. A response to what RW wanted to respond to instead of the point I made.

    Although the first mention of internal movement of people remained intact the part that drove home it was about people in general and not just "immigrants" was lopped off. The important cut text:

    "It doesn't. It is replaced with socialism for it adapted to people with socialist upbringings and ideas. Be they from California, Cook County, or a foreign land.

    Now maybe with true open borders no welfare state that would bring in people who want liberty. But that's not the present condition. "

    So, there's no basis in reality for what? That people bring their ideas, attitudes and cultures with them? It's happened throughout history. It's happening right now within the USA with people who were born in the USA. As left statism makes places intolerable people move out and create more of it elsewhere. In the past as I recall RW argued change from people moving around was natural and for the good and fearing it was wrong. But when it becomes inconvenient that people do bring change it has no basis in reality?

    These examples such as Pelosi and others counter my actual point exactly how? Which one moved and put their left statism aside for liberty? Who reformed and became like Ron Paul? I see no example of that offered. Would Pelosi become libertarian if she became Ron Paul's neighbor? Of course not. She would agitate to make Texas like California.

    I deliberately made my point using domestic lefties because they spread their attitudes, ideas, and systems where ever they move within in the USA if they can adapt that place to them. It can be state to state or as even small as several miles. I've seen first hand people fleeing bad neighborhoods only to have the bad neighborhood follow them as well as the government errors that compounded problems. The result was not more freedom but less. Does it always follow? of course not? It depends on proportions and who is expected to adapt to who. If it is made attractive or not.

    I didn't mention Hispanics specifically. Anyway IME like most people political views aren't usually discussed but local to me lefty protests have no trouble finding people, including masses of Hispanics to go downtown to an appropriately framed and themed protest. Even if they have to take off work. Maybe they are just trend followers but I don't see that making achieving a PPS any easier. Even if libertarianism can become a trend it will need to be so much larger to get anywhere.

    The adaptation issue remains. Given the left statist influence over US institutions it is near certainty that they will continue to use government and other institutional force to make people adapt to accommodate and provide for the immigrant population. Meanwhile these home-grown lefties will further encourage people of similar views to them to enter the USA. They will agitate this population for their own ends.

    Given these "American-born and educated" are there offering the fruits of other people's labors to anyone who shows up and asks, how are you going to get to a PPS? Sure, some people who arrive will be too proud to participate in such a thing but a lot won't. Some will show up specifically to participate. Sure that too proud to participate element could be flipped, I agree. The trouble is, the invitation for people who aren't them and the children will be educated in the same left-statist system. Many of them will be programmed by that system to see 'white people' as oppressors who owe them. Their traditional family values will also be broken by the lefties just as they did to those already here.

    Remember too that some of the people most in opposition to this open(ish) borders and generous welfare state arrangement are those hard working immigrants and their descendants who could support a PPS. Perhaps they know something you do not?

    1. Re: Jimmy Joe Meeker,

      ── That people bring their ideas, attitudes and cultures with them? It's happened throughout history. ──

      Which is why we have Taco Tuesday! Oh, the horror!!!!!

      ── Given the left statist influence over US institutions [...] ──

      You keep changing the focus from immigrants who you say (or fear) are infected with Socialism *irremediably*, to US institutions influenced by leftists. So who influences who?

      ── Their traditional family values will also be broken by the lefties just as they did to those already here. ──

      You make it seem like the problem is with the culture INSIDE the US and not outside. Make up your mind.

      Your assumptions are based mostly on paranoid delusions. Where's your evidence that people from other countries share the same common political vein? Who told you that? It's a LIE.


    2. You're really trying too hard Torres. You're really struggling to find objection. But, at least this time you didn't take the easy dishonest route, although you lose points for your shrill ending.

      Anyhow I did not change the focus you're confused on the point. The point is it doesn't matter where people come from they bring their attitudes, ideas, and so forth with them.

      There is a huge problem from within the USA and I've been clear with you for some time about it. It's a welfare state and the socialization of the cost of living in the USA by government for the aim to create And as I have shown you before only some federal programs are prohibited to immigrants.

      What is my evidence? Are we getting more liberty or less as a result of the present immigration situation? Not people willing to work for cheap, but actual less government theft, less government services, less government intrusion because the vast majority of people arriving refuse to ever take a dime from taxpayers and send their children to private schools to avoid the indocrination? Because they vote against government growing? No, we get quite the opposite. More government programs, bigger government programs, more welfare, higher taxes, and so on as a direct result of the lobbying and agitation for more for immigrants. RW pointed out politicans running on such a platform above.

      This is the sort of thing going on over by me:

      How is that more liberty? Sending them to what RW above calls "American anti-liberty colleges and universities" at the taxpayers' expense.

      And you Mr. Torres refuse to end programs where immigrants' costs are pushed on to taxpayers before letting more in. That's not a recipe for liberty, it's a recipe for collectivism. Of course you already understand that.